Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

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Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby SLJ » Thu Aug 04, 2011 8:58 am

I recently emailed Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins, a linguist who also has both biblical training and missionary experience, and asked him to comment on the development of the idea of eternal and the usage of the Greek aionios. His reply is posted with his permission.
===================

Edited to add ... this has now been revised and some points better clarified, and posted as an article on OBJ's website:
http://orvillejenkins.com/theology/aionios.html


===================

Hi, Sonia.

Thanks for this interesting question. I was just considering this question recently.

A major problem in such discussions is to consider the starting place the English words we have to use, or that commonly come up in our discussions in our own language about these philosophical concepts. Then the Greek words are assumed to “mean” one of these English words or another.

If we find an equivalent English usage for the word, the Greek word aionios mean “of the ages.” So associating it with “eternal” or “endless” in English entails a couple of stages of adjustment and association with the English concepts entailed by the word in the modern English rationalist and analytical worldview of our era. The word has/had meaning in the Greek worldview and cultural context that does not match the modern English-language worldview and cultural context.

(Actually the argument comes not from the contemporary period but the earlier Modern period, based on Enlightenment and Rationalist thinking. The Modernist era has been surpassed with a more dynamic way of thinking that tries to focus on the relational and dynamic usages.)

The concept I have of the Greek worldview concept and usage connotation of the Greek word aionios/aionion is “timelessness.” Neither of the English words “eternal” or “endless” match that connotation in the Greek worldview. In western and English-language philosophical usage, “eternal” and “endless” do not mean the same thing either.

Normally the underlying concept of “eternal” would be closer to the ancient Greek philosophical idea that the universe was not created but always existed, and the accompanying idea that ultimate reality exists outside “time.” Time is understood, as it is in modern and current scientific thought, to be a measure of our experience of sequence. The Greek idea commonly represented by the English word “eternal” is “outside of time,” unaffected by time.”

The English term “endless” necessarily entails the idea of time, or sequence. This also represents many of the components or symbols we find in biblical references to the new age. The idea of personal experience is still there, the idea of relationships with others is still there, and the metaphors used include presence and relationships with animals and among the different animals to each other, other nations and kings and administrations.

That is, the same concepts and relationships we care familiar with in our common life, that define and make up our life and meaning as humans, these are all reference points in the thinking of what the New Age would look like.

But the idea of how long never appears in focus. The focus is on difference of kind, quality, style. Time length or lack of it does not seem to be the point. It is the focus on peace and justice and harmony that are in focus.

I don’t see that much difference in the usages and connotations in Classical and Koine Greek. Both were far from the abstract analytical thinking of the modern European era. Imposing the idea of English “endless” introduces time sequence and depth, and I don’t see that the Greek word entailed that. It was focusing of the relational and moral situation. Things would be different, safe, just, positive, in the direct rule of God. This is how Jesus talked also about the “Rule of God” (traditional term Kingdom of God).

One problem with the Modernist mindset in rationally analyzing and categorizing everything is that it wants to make distinctions, clear and firm distinctions, when in fact that is not how real life works. Reality is dynamic and especially the way words are used and the way people think is in metaphors, symbols and association with previous experiences or understandings. “Definitions” are just summaries of how people use words.

Words in one language don’t “mean” any word in another language. Each language is a complex set of conceptual components that we use dynamically to express our ideas, experiences and reflections, and convey them among other human beings.

The target language worldview concepts and usages are the context to determine “meaning,” not the language we’d like to interpret it into. So many times questions asked and meaning sought in the modern analytical thinking are not related to the worldview concepts and focus of the ancient cultures and the Greek or other languages that reflect those cultures and times.

I recently made some notes while thinking about this when the question came up. Maybe these comments and reflections will be helpful.

I understand the meaning of the word aionion in Greek to carry the connotation of 'pertaining to the age' or 'age enduring.' The problems in interpreting it as the English “eternal” or “everlasting” are several. First of all, a word in one language and the culture it represents does not "mean" a word or the cultural concept it carries in another character.

Keep in mind that a "definition" is only a summary of how a word may be used. Meanings are all determined by usage. This what makes human speech so creative, dynamic, expressive and flexible. Inadequate assumptions about words, language and meaning can mislead us from the beginning.

So we first take a step back to look at the cultural or worldview concept. What we do is look at how a word may be used. We honor the language and its cultural integrity. We do not assume in language that there is some objective authoritative "meaning" or "definition" that prescribes what a word can or must mean. That is not how language works.

We consider what underlying ideas are carried in words in a particular language. No language is independent of a historical, cultural context and the worldview of the culture using that language.

Thus in the strictest term, a word in Greek does not "mean" in English. We must determine what it means in the original language-culture then search for a similar way to represent or approximate that in the target culture-language. This is what Robertson's amazing Historical Grammar of the Greek New Testament tries to do.

He does not "define" words, in some authoritative abstract concepts, like the modern rationalist mind would prefer. Robertson does not try to find a clear, definite box in which to file away a word in Greek. He looks into the usage of a word or grammar form and surveys to breadth and variety of usage through history and across contexts.

This dynamic approach attempts to honor the integrity of texts of any age or language and the language in which they are framed.

Meaning Deeper than Words
The problem goes much deeper than word meanings. Words have meaning only as they are used [See my article “Through Thick and Thin”] to represent mental concepts deriving from a particular worldview. The ancient world in any culture was considerably different from the modern materialistic culture focused on scientific analysis and linear reasoning to deduce “facts” as the essence of reality.

The word in English "everlasting" assumes a context of time sequence and measurement, which the word "aionion" does not. The word everlasting indicates a starting point and moving towards what would be an ending point, but without a real ending point. That is, the focus seems to still be on sequence. The Greek word, and the messianic idea it attempts to represent, is focused on condition or character, a new age that is different from the current age, in kind and quality. The focus is not on how long in terms of time sequence.

The Greeks, as well as all the ancient peoples, were dynamic and relational in their understanding of the world, even the “philosophical” thinkers. We call those cultures concrete-relational, or oral-relational. Modern literacy and the resultant way of thinking analytical since the Enlightenment has affected the actual way people think.

The western Rationalist approach to knowledge, reducing matters down to components and analyzing them by linear deduction, has led to a high focus on time sequence and cause and effect by “independent” actors, rather than the connected, relational concepts of reality dominant in the rest of the modern world and universal in ancient human cultures.

It Does Not Compute
That means the ideas of “everlasting” or “eternal” in English has a time-sequence meaning you cannot get away from. This is just not involved in the Greek (really Hebrew) idea of a New Age. The New Age is what is referred to in the New Testament, based on the Hebrew Prophets Isaiah and Jeremiah, of the Rule of God (traditionally interpreted in the European Imperial terms as “Kingdom of God”).

Philosophical
The modern western linear thinking, dominant since the 1600s-1700s Enlightenment, focuses on time sequence and cause and effect physical sequences. This is not involved in the concepts like aionion, a grammatical phrase in a word, focusing on a situation or condition, related to an “Age.”

Focus is not on how long it is but the differentness or newness of it. Again, the context is relational, experiential. The Messiah was introducing a New Age. Read the Gospels and Jesus’ teaching about the Kingdom of God and you will get a sense of the dynamic urgency and presence of this.

“The Kingdom is Within You” and similar phrases. Jesus is actually presenting an alternative reality that can be experienced now. Length of time or future-ness is not involved. There is always the future hope aspect, as things progress toward a complete implementation or fulfillment. But the focus is on whether God is ruling or a human authority is ruling, deciding how we will live and relate. (Revelation, contrast between God’s Rule and Imperial Rule.)

Greek concepts were dynamic likewise, though if you start from a western analytical point of view, the philosophers certainly look more rational and deductive, but the actual content arises in a different context.

Grammatical
This word does not deal with time, but with era. Aeon or Eon is the form of the root word as we still use it, borrowed directly from the Greek, with the Latin phonetic spelling. The form used here is a whole phrase in the modern choppy syntax of English and other European languages, except German and modern Greek keep the “phrase-in-a-word.”

The somewhat equivalent phrase would be “referring to the Age” “in regard to the Age” “For the Age” “Of the Age” depending on the context of the discourse or the interpretation determined to meet the syntax requirements of English. It is genitive or possessive in form. So “Of the Age” is a standard formal form of it. And it is PLURAL. Thus you will also see it as “Of the Ages.”

So it carries the concept of the New Age, which is already here, as a choice among “Ages” or experiences. This is how the current and the future hopes relate in the idea of the word. The word meaning and its worldview concept does not match the modern western view underlying the English word "eternal" and its European language equivalents.

The worldview assumptions are different, not focused on the passage or duration (lack of duration) of time, but on a New Age. The focus is on a new orientation to life, a time of justice and peace, with a concern for the level, quality, moral character of life. You will find this practical life-based understanding among most of the world's cultures today.

Cultural
Related to the Philosophical discussion above, the translation “eternal” is an accommodation to English-culture concepts. The idea even there has changed from the 1300s when the first English translations were made from Latin then Greek, captured in the King James Version and carried over by tradition in some modern versions. It is a “contextualization,” an attempt to use a current idea in the target language-culture that might make sense of the old idea.

But the more different the worldview and the connotation carried by the new word, and the more vaguely or incorrectly the translators of the time understand the original word, its usage and the worldview of its language, the more misleading or incorrect the attempt at interpretation or accommodation will be. The tendency is to start with ideas you already have, then adapt the biblical text (or other text) to the cultural ideas already held.

Most people, being unaware that there are multiple ways of understanding reality, will look for a biblical phrase that seems to relate to what they are thinking, or has similar wording that might be applied, treating the biblical text something like a dictionary or encyclopedia, which it is not. The context is critical and the original topic or focus is indispensible to understand what the original passage was even talking about.

This pattern of starting with our cultural ideas, the looking for a Bible passage that could support it, leads us across the line into syncretism. There is very much unacknowledged syncretism in Western Christianity as a whole. This is one factor that makes western Christian forms different from the cultural and theological forms of non-western churches.

These ancient churches in other cultural setting have also tried to make the Gospel relevant in their cultures and histories. This process of interpreting in our cultural context is a natural way our brains work to learn. We start where we are and relate new input to the concepts we already have from experiences we have had up to that point.

Any change imposed upon a biblical word of concept is normally inadvertent and results from imperfect attempts to bridge the gap. We are cultural creatures. The abstract rational approach of the Modern mind, focused on the ability of Human Reason to grasp and understand Ultimate knowledge misleads us to thinking what we have understood up to a point is in fact the ultimate structure of reality and truth and God sees it! The original sin of wanting to know like God knows!

Now, with that background caution, back to the specific question. The English word “Everlasting” and the concept is entails is just wrong as an attempt to interpret what was entailed by the Greek term in its context. The New Testament terminology in Greek was interpreting the Hebrew messianic idea, as modified in the fulfillment claimed by the Christians, of the “Age” or “New Age” or “of the ages.” How literal or symbolic this was thought to be seems to vary.

The usage should be considered somewhat of an idiom, because of the way it is used in the biblical texts and as n interpretation of the messianic concepts we claim as believers in Christ. The main idiomatic feature for us would be the plural. Perhaps this is for emphasis, a common Semitic/Hebrew way of making emphasis.

Patterns of translation and usage in Greek were already set long before the time of Jesus, in the translation of the Hebrew scriptures collectively referred to as the Septuagint. This is what most of the New Testament writers quoted from. This word aionion had been used to capture the messianic promises perceived at that time.

Failure to consider of these cultural worldview questions has been the source of many arguments that are just talking about whole different questions than the biblical text is even considering or addressing.

Best wishes,
Orville

========++++++++========++++++++========
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby roofus » Thu Aug 04, 2011 5:47 pm

It seems that he was saying that our modernist tendencies have led to interpreting aionios as endless. But it was Augustine who followed such an interpretation, long before the modern era, so this is a problem I have with his interpretation. But it is interesting, it sounds like Barclay's interpretation (similar at least. "Pertaining to the timeless age to come", perhaps, is the interpretation that he is making.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby SLJ » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:26 pm

I've asked him about Augustine, but haven't had a reply yet.

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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby roofus » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:36 pm

SLJ wrote:I've asked him about Augustine, but haven't had a reply yet.

Sonia

Thanks! It is interesting that you put this up because this week I am tinkering with the interpretation of aionios as referring to a timeless age.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Paidion » Thu Aug 04, 2011 6:51 pm

It is a fairly common idea that "aionios" refers to "timelessness". Indeed, it is a rather historic idea.

However, I believe it to be incorrect.

It is the adjectival form of the noun “αἰων”, which means “age”. So, I suppose we could translate “αἰωνιος” as “agey”, but as far as I know, the latter is not an English word.

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”. The stone wall could hardly be considered to be "timeless".

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence is believed to have lasted only three years. Was Jonathan in a timeless state in that prison? Three years is a period of time. It is neither timeless nor everlasting.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby revdrew61 » Thu Aug 04, 2011 10:44 pm

Thanks Sonia and Orville for this clear and helpful explanation. I also found Julie Ferwerda's chapter on this subject (in "Raising Hell") very good.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby I sit in Awe. » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:13 pm

Thanks for posting Sonia, that was a good read, and very good points. Paidon's point as well.

I've always felt seeing how a particular word is used throughout scripture ( and literature of the day) was a better way to come to understanding of it's meaning then a strict definition in a lexicon.

The tipping point for me towards Universalism was Seeing how "aion" was used throughout the New Testament. I found the following section of the book "hope beyond hell" to make a very convincing arguement that our English word "Eternity" or "Everlasting" or our idea of "forever" was definitely not any where near the literal meaning of the word "aion":

"Consider the New Testament
use of aion. Does “eternity” make any sense in the following
passages?
♦ What will be the sign…of the end of [eternity] (Mt. 24:3)?
♦ I am with you…to the end of the [eternity] (Mt. 28:20).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] are more shrewd (Lu. 16:8).
♦ The sons of this [eternity] marry (Lu. 20:34).
♦ Worthy to attain that [eternity] (Lu. 20:35).
♦ Since the [eternity] began (Jn. 9:32; Ac. 3:21).
♦ Conformed to this [eternity] (Ro. 12:2).
♦ Mystery kept secret since the [eternity] began but now
made manifest (Ro. 16:25-26).
♦ Where is the disputer of this [eternity] (1Co. 1:20)?
♦ Wisdom of this [eternity], nor of the rulers of this [eternity]…
ordained before the [eternities]…which none of the
rulers of this [eternity]… (1Co. 2:6-8).
♦ Wise in this [eternity] (1Co. 3:18).
♦ Upon whom the ends of the [eternities] have come
(1Co. 10:11).
♦ God of this [eternity] has blinded (2Co. 4:4).
♦ Deliver us from this present evil [eternity] (Ga. 1:4).
♦ Not only in this [eternity] but also in that which is to come
(Ep. 1:21).
♦ Walked according to the [eternity] of this world (Ep. 2:2).
♦ In the [eternities] to come (Ep. 2:7).
24 Hope Beyond Hell
♦ From the beginnings of the [eternities] (Ep. 3:9).
♦ Hidden from [eternities]…but now…revealed (Col. 1:26).
♦ Loved this present [eternity] (2Ti. 4:10).
♦ Receive him [for eternity] (Phil. 1:15). Forever or until
Onesimus, Philemon’s former slave, dies?
♦ Powers of the [eternity] to come (He. 6:5).
♦ At the end of the [eternities] (He. 9:26).
♦ We understand the [eternities] have been prepared by a
saying of God (He. 11:3)."
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby amy » Thu Aug 04, 2011 11:29 pm

This was a really good read! He writes so well! Having learned Spanish I know how important it is to learn a word in it's context and how words can have various meanings, often ones that aren't quite the same as their English translation. It makes sense why people have been able translate aionion the way they have. You can't be too attached to a translation and always have to look back at context and culture.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Alex Smith » Fri Aug 05, 2011 1:33 am

Thanks heaps Sonia, that's great initiative! The more experts we find on this the better 8-)

A list of other useful things that Dr. Orville Boyd Jenkins has written about Greek

The argument that gets to me regularly is, given it's now so obviously not everlasting, why is it taking so long to update the lexicons and mainstream translations? :?

revdrew61 wrote:Thanks Sonia and Orville for this clear and helpful explanation. I also found Julie Ferwerda's chapter on this subject (in "Raising Hell") very good.
Well spotted my friend :D

In chapter 14 of Raising Hell, Julie Ferwerda wrote:ETERNITY VS. AGES
Throughout previous chapters I have mentioned the non-existence of the concept of eternity in Scripture. This chapter is crucial to our understanding of the false teaching of a place of eternal torment or even everlasting separation from God, without reducing the permanence of our future life with God.

How did translators go awry and begin inserting the concept of eternity into the Scriptures? Earlier we learned that the Hebrew word, olam (Strong’s #5956), actually means something like, “behind the horizon” or “to conceal,” and simply does not mean or imply eternal. It has been frequently mistranslated as everlasting and eternal throughout the Old Testament, though most literal translations and the Hebrew Interlinear render olam as “age.”**

So now let’s turn to the Greek word frequently translated eternal, forever, or everlasting in the New Testament. Aion is a noun that actually translates as “eon,” or the more common modern English equivalent, “age” (Strong’s #165), and is one of the most mistranslated and inconsistently translated words in the Bible.

An eon or age, is defined as a period of time with a beginning and an end. Consider the myriad of ways this one word (with one meaning) has been translated in two of our more popular New Testament versions today:
  • Age or ages: NASB–26, KJV–2
  • Ancient time: NASB–1
  • Beginning of time: NASB–1
  • World or worlds: NASB–7, KJV–78
  • World without end: KJV–1
  • Course: NASB–1
  • Eternal: NASB–2, KJV–2
  • Eternity: NASB–1
  • Ever: NASB-2, KJV–71
  • Forever: NASB–27, KJV–30
  • Forever and ever: NASB–20, KJV–21
  • Forevermore: NASB–2
  • Long ago: NASB–1
  • Never: NASB-1, KJV–6
  • Old: NASB–1
  • Time: NASB–1
  • “Miscellaneous”: KJV–5

** The scribes of the Septuagint translated the Hebrew olam into aion (age) in the Greek in noun form, and aionios (pertaining to an age) for the adjective form.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby roofus » Fri Aug 05, 2011 4:23 pm

Alex,
What you copied is contradicted by the professor that Sonia contacted. He *does* see eternity as the meaning. But not as "endless time", rather by a timelessness. The age that is being "pertained to" is apparently a pretty special age.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Alex Smith » Sat Aug 06, 2011 5:15 pm

roofus wrote:Alex,
What you copied is contradicted by the professor that Sonia contacted. He *does* see eternity as the meaning. But not as "endless time", rather by a timelessness. The age that is being "pertained to" is apparently a pretty special age.
roof
Unfortunately whenever I say "eternity" people seem to just think "an infinite amount of time", rather than "timelessness" or "ethereal" (in the sense of being "other dimensional"). Sorry, I've had a lot on my mind over the last few days so can't remember exactly what my point was :oops: I'm guessing it was that there's mounting evidence that it at least doesn't mean "an infinite amount of time", whether it means "timelessness" or "pertaining to the age beyond the horizon" (although as you point out, that might actually be the same thing), I'm not entirely sure.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby dirtboy » Sun Aug 07, 2011 1:34 am

roofus wrote:Alex,
What you copied is contradicted by the professor that Sonia contacted. He *does* see eternity as the meaning. But not as "endless time", rather by a timelessness. The age that is being "pertained to" is apparently a pretty special age.
roof


What's interesting though, roof, is that here is a word that seems to be quite complicated. I've been studying it for a long time now and I can say this much for certain:
1. It is NOT a simple word
2. If you wanted simply "eternal" you chose the word "aidios" which always meant "eternal" or its equivalent
3. It can mean several different things including eternal and NOT eternal.
4. It Does come from the word "age" which is not eternal
5. I've read many, many sentences from authors during the time of Christ who meant it as NOT eternal

I know there is more but it is 2:30 in the morning for me and I'm off to bed - dead tired... :)

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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby roofus » Sun Aug 07, 2011 7:06 am

dirtboy wrote:
roofus wrote:Alex,
What you copied is contradicted by the professor that Sonia contacted. He *does* see eternity as the meaning. But not as "endless time", rather by a timelessness. The age that is being "pertained to" is apparently a pretty special age.
roof


What's interesting though, roof, is that here is a word that seems to be quite complicated. I've been studying it for a long time now and I can say this much for certain:
1. It is NOT a simple word
2. If you wanted simply "eternal" you chose the word "aidios" which always meant "eternal" or its equivalent
3. It can mean several different things including eternal and NOT eternal.
4. It Does come from the word "age" which is not eternal
5. I've read many, many sentences from authors during the time of Christ who meant it as NOT eternal

I know there is more but it is 2:30 in the morning for me and I'm off to bed - dead tired... :)

Chris


Hi Chris- can you show me where to find those many sentences from authors during the time of Christ?
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby dirtboy » Sun Aug 07, 2011 10:58 pm

roofus wrote:
dirtboy wrote:
roofus wrote:Alex,
What you copied is contradicted by the professor that Sonia contacted. He *does* see eternity as the meaning. But not as "endless time", rather by a timelessness. The age that is being "pertained to" is apparently a pretty special age.
roof


What's interesting though, roof, is that here is a word that seems to be quite complicated. I've been studying it for a long time now and I can say this much for certain:
1. It is NOT a simple word
2. If you wanted simply "eternal" you chose the word "aidios" which always meant "eternal" or its equivalent
3. It can mean several different things including eternal and NOT eternal.
4. It Does come from the word "age" which is not eternal
5. I've read many, many sentences from authors during the time of Christ who meant it as NOT eternal

I know there is more but it is 2:30 in the morning for me and I'm off to bed - dead tired... :)

Chris


Hi Chris- can you show me where to find those many sentences from authors during the time of Christ?


I have studied this word over the last several months and have read numerous articles, sections of books, entries of lexicons and other word study books, etc to come to this conclusion. I regret now that I didn't collect these different statements in one place! I'll look around and see if I can't gather a few key statements and post them to you. I remember reading a statement by Josephus where he used the exact phrase of Jesus "eternal punishment" but wasn't using it in an eternal sense. I'll see if I can find that one and a few others. Give me a little time and I'll find some interesting statements for you, roof.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby roofus » Mon Aug 08, 2011 7:01 am

Chris, I've seen the Josephus and a few others, but not "many, many". For me it has been "a few"......
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Michael » Mon Aug 08, 2011 8:57 am

Paidion wrote:It is a fairly common idea that "aionios" refers to "timelessness". Indeed, it is a rather historic idea.

However, I believe it to be incorrect.

It is the adjectival form of the noun “αἰων”, which means “age”. So, I suppose we could translate “αἰωνιος” as “agey”, but as far as I know, the latter is not an English word.

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”. The stone wall could hardly be considered to be "timeless".

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence is believed to have lasted only three years. Was Jonathan in a timeless state in that prison? Three years is a period of time. It is neither timeless nor everlasting.

What I don't understand is Hebrews 1:2.

"...thru whom He made the aions" (usually translated "worlds.")

If "aion" is a period of time, why is it used here (and what does it mean here)?
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby dirtboy » Mon Aug 08, 2011 9:10 am

Michael wrote:
Paidion wrote:It is a fairly common idea that "aionios" refers to "timelessness". Indeed, it is a rather historic idea.

However, I believe it to be incorrect.

It is the adjectival form of the noun “αἰων”, which means “age”. So, I suppose we could translate “αἰωνιος” as “agey”, but as far as I know, the latter is not an English word.

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”. The stone wall could hardly be considered to be "timeless".

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence is believed to have lasted only three years. Was Jonathan in a timeless state in that prison? Three years is a period of time. It is neither timeless nor everlasting.

What I don't understand is Hebrews 1:2.

"...thru whom He made the aions" (usually translated "worlds.")

If "aion" is a period of time, why is it used here (and what does it mean here)?


It literally means "age". So it would be "through whom He made the ages".
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Sherman » Mon Aug 08, 2011 12:43 pm

Something that is significant to me in my understanding of aionios is that it was used to translate the Hebrew "olam" and "olam haba", which spoke of the age to come, and the Messianic age to come, an age with a radically different quality to it. And then I also consider where judgment and the fire that destroyed Sodom are described by aionios; both of which to me certainly do not speak of endless, quantity of time, but rather of timelessness or time-transcending, and refer to their source and relationship to God.

Considering Matthew was written to the Jew, possibly even written in Hebrew or Aramaic, and written from a Jewish perspective, the "age to come" or "Messianic age to come" seems to fit well. Paul though, wrote in Greek to a Greco-Roman audience and thus it seems that the timeless or time-transcending aspect of aionios seems to fit well, but with a strong tie to the kingdom/rule/reign of God.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Michael » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:12 pm

dirtboy wrote:
Michael wrote:
Paidion wrote:It is a fairly common idea that "aionios" refers to "timelessness". Indeed, it is a rather historic idea.

However, I believe it to be incorrect.

It is the adjectival form of the noun “αἰων”, which means “age”. So, I suppose we could translate “αἰωνιος” as “agey”, but as far as I know, the latter is not an English word.

The word was used in koine Greek (the Greek spoken from 300 B.C. to 300 A.D.) to refer to anything which is enduring. The word was used by Diodorus Siculus to describe the stone used to build a wall. The word seems to have been used as meaning “lasting” or “durable”. The stone wall could hardly be considered to be "timeless".

Josephus in “The Wars of the Jews” book 6, states that Jonathan was condemned to “αἰωνιος” imprisonment. Yet that prison sentence is believed to have lasted only three years. Was Jonathan in a timeless state in that prison? Three years is a period of time. It is neither timeless nor everlasting.

What I don't understand is Hebrews 1:2.

"...thru whom He made the aions" (usually translated "worlds.")

If "aion" is a period of time, why is it used here (and what does it mean here)?


It literally means "age". So it would be "through whom He made the ages".

But it's usually translated "through whom He made the worlds" because "through whom He made the ages" doesn't seem to make much sense.

What would that mean?
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby roofus » Mon Aug 08, 2011 6:14 pm

Well, what would "worlds" mean?
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby dirtboy » Mon Aug 08, 2011 10:14 pm

What would that mean?

Look at it this way: God created everything: time and space. Not only did he create time, but he divided it up into special "ages". To say that "he made the ages" makes just as much sense as "he made the earth".
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Sherman » Tue Aug 09, 2011 8:44 am

Heb. 1.2 is interesting.

"and through the Son he created the universe." NLT
"and through whom also he made the universe." TNIV
"through whom also He made the worlds;" NKJV

The context though seems to be more "time" oriented, than cosmos oriented. In times past God spoke through the prophets, but now God has spoken through His Son (better), through whom He poieo (make, do, commit, bring forth, work) the ages.

Poieo is an interesting word. It speaks of doing, bringing forth, making, etc. In this context it would seem to best be interpreted "ordered" to me. God set in order the ages. He had it all planned out from before time, ages, began.

So as for aionas, it seems "ages" is what was intended. The age of Christ is much better than before because it has a much fuller revelation of God's love for us all, Jew and Gentile alike, all humanity not just the chosen!
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Michael » Tue Aug 09, 2011 5:29 pm

roofus wrote:Well, what would "worlds" mean?

To a first century Jew (or Greek) it moght mean the earth, the 1rst, 2nd, and 3rd heaven, and tartarous.

Or it could mean earth, venus, mars, saturn Jupeter, etc., etc.

What would "made (past tense) the ages (segments of time)" mean?
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby dirtboy » Tue Aug 09, 2011 11:48 pm

Michael wrote:
roofus wrote:Well, what would "worlds" mean?

To a first century Jew (or Greek) it moght mean the earth, the 1rst, 2nd, and 3rd heaven, and tartarous.

Or it could mean earth, venus, mars, saturn Jupeter, etc., etc.

What would "made (past tense) the ages (segments of time)" mean?


Think of how the Jew saw or understand "the ages". For example, God was God of Messiah. The Messianic age was a time pre-ordained by God and it was a very special time for the Jews. It was prophecied about. It was planned. They waited for the Messiah, or the Messianic age. There were different ages and each had a special meaning. Each time period was designed by God for specific things. He made the ages. He planned each one and they unfolded just as he planned. He was the God of the ages!
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Sherman » Wed Aug 10, 2011 7:48 am

Michael wrote:What would "made (past tense) the ages (segments of time)" mean?


Poieo (made) is an interesting word. It speaks of doing, bringing forth, making, etc. In this context it would seem to best be interpreted "ordered" to me. God set in order the ages. He had it all planned out from before the ages even began. And the "age" in which we live is Better than previous ages. The previous ages had far less of the revelation of God. We now have Jesus, the perfect revelation of God! As dirtboy notes, the Messianic "age" was something the Jews (Hebrews) longed for. The author of Hebrews is saying that the Messianic age has come, it's at hand, within reach. And it is far better than any age before!

Translating aionos as "worlds or universe" muddies the intended meaning of this passage, as does translating poieo as "made".
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Michael » Wed Aug 10, 2011 9:49 am

Thank you dirtboy and Sherman.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Melchizedek » Wed Aug 10, 2011 2:40 pm

Thanks for posting this, Sonia. This very much matches a lot of what I've read concerning research on these words from other sources as well.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby JasonPratt » Mon Aug 15, 2011 12:22 pm

If it helps any, I notice that Knoch translates it "makes the eons", not past tense. "through Whom He also makes the eons".

The online concordant literal Greek at scripture4all.org agrees that the tense is active aorist.

It's the same tense as the other verbs in that verse: "on the last of these days He-speaks [meaning God from v.1] to us in a Son, Whom He-places enjoyer of the allotment [i.e. inheritor] of-all through Whom also the eons He makes."

The aorist, except when it is in the indicative mood, does not have any temporal significance; but in English we tend to express that as a simple act occurring in past time, even though it may still be happening in present time.

Similarly, someone writing that in Greek wouldn't think that this necessarily implies that the actions only apply to the past and not to the present (or the future either), nor only to the present and not to the past. It isn't about relative timing at all, it's just a fact about an action. Context might qualify that otherwise, but there is no such context here--except insofar as there is more than one age being talked about so it has to apply to at least either the past or the future plus the present age. But the cultural context is about the unique ontological superiority of God as creator and sustainer of all things, in superior comparison to any lesser lord or god; so all ages are meant not only a few of them including the author's present one.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby SLJ » Sun Aug 28, 2011 1:21 pm

Update: this has been revised and better clarified and posted as an article on OBJ's website.

Time or Character, The Ages or A Time Sequence in aionios: How Words "Mean" in Greek and English
Eph 1:10 ...a plan for the fullness of time, to unite all things in him, things in heaven and things on earth.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Michael » Fri Sep 30, 2011 12:12 am

JasonPratt wrote:If it helps any, I notice that Knoch translates it "makes the eons", not past tense. "through Whom He also makes the eons".

The online concordant literal Greek at scripture4all.org agrees that the tense is active aorist.

It's the same tense as the other verbs in that verse: "on the last of these days He-speaks [meaning God from v.1] to us in a Son, Whom He-places enjoyer of the allotment [i.e. inheritor] of-all through Whom also the eons He makes."

The aorist, except when it is in the indicative mood, does not have any temporal significance; but in English we tend to express that as a simple act occurring in past time, even though it may still be happening in present time.

Similarly, someone writing that in Greek wouldn't think that this necessarily implies that the actions only apply to the past and not to the present (or the future either), nor only to the present and not to the past. It isn't about relative timing at all, it's just a fact about an action. Context might qualify that otherwise, but there is no such context here--except insofar as there is more than one age being talked about so it has to apply to at least either the past or the future plus the present age. But the cultural context is about the unique ontological superiority of God as creator and sustainer of all things, in superior comparison to any lesser lord or god; so all ages are meant not only a few of them including the author's present one.

Thank you Jason.

Wouldn't that mean time itself was (is) created though The Son?
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby billsagerthon » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:30 am

So we first take a step back to look at the cultural or worldview concept. What we do is look at how a word may be used. We honor the language and its cultural integrity. We do not assume in language that there is some objective authoritative "meaning" or "definition" that prescribes what a word can or must mean. That is not how language works.
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Re: Eternal and Aionios -- Comments from a linguist

Postby Sobornost » Wed Apr 03, 2013 4:00 pm

Can anyone help me? If the Hebrew ‘olam’ means actually means something like, “behind the horizon” or “to conceal'', what does the Hebrew for ‘from generations to generations’ mean (I think that is 'dor' x 2)?
Thanks!!!!!!!
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