First of all Tom, very enjoyable to have you back here with us discussing these things. Some number of us have been praying for you in your personal/family issues of recent years, so it’s great to see you back. Please consider us here your soul mates and fellow travelers; lifting you up in your family suffering… And we all love your book.
Second, it’s both exhilarating and normalizing to hear your “real” voice (instead of your measured written voice). You suffer “senior moments”… and are overcome by some sort of nasal drainage issues – right there in public. Wow Tom! I wanted you to be some sort of invincible and perfect voice, totally and completely in control! Perfect! – You are not that, which is quite the relief in reality. Makes me love you even more actually… (For you are far more human this way…)
To the discussion…
This seems like a rather big step forward for the truth of Universal Reconciliation it seems to me. Walls (he is far more the opponent here than the annihilation dude Watson - nice as he is… Having been raised with annihilationism, I’d imagined it more reasonable than this man presents here… he basically just listed texts) clearly concedes all his arguments and retreats, as his main defense, to the supremacy of “free will”. THREE points are awarded here he claims! – and why the aesthetic position earns only one point is a monstrous offense it seems to me…
So here you have both adversaries, both fielding their defense against Universalism, doing so as advocates against position #2 – and doing so on the basis of “free will”. – That seems to me a huge step in the right direction Tom. I’ve often gotten folks to this spot - that the issue really is one of free will - and asked them to give me a bible study on the topic of free will. Does God freely let us chose our own A) eternal torment or B) non existence.
No one can do it.
Which is really an amazing place to be since now we are (apparently) out from under the “umbrella” of A) the text, and B) the authority of tradition… (not that these are not incredibly important to us as well…) Both things which are held to be deeply respected and honored. So this amazes me that Walls confidently seeks solace for his position behind the wall of “free will”. So confident he gives it “three points”!!!
That tells us where the argument needs now to be directed…
All that said, why not go back and ponder the exact nature of what was going on as it’s recorded in Genesis at the tree. What was/is the basis of our rift (self created) with God? God said this… Satan (or who ever this snake was) said that. They are in conflict. What’s the issue they’re arguing/making claims about? I’m very much in the realm of speculation now, so this is just thought experiment territory…
Could it be that the central issue seems to revolve around our intense need/desire to experience autonomy and independence. But more, the source of our origins. And the nature of our continued existence. We’ve reluctantly agreed that we are not “free” to create the circumstances nor specifics of our existence, yet imagine we are “free” to cause our non-existence. Why is that? Why does it seem so “self-evident” to so many?
So the central temptation unmasked at the tree is to go our own way; to exist apart from God; to see ourselves as be all and end all; to assume responsibility for our own well-being. That sort of thing.
But God says No, that’s actually not the way reality works; if you separate from Me, you will die. We exist at HIS pleasure – not our own. (Whether we exist FOR His pleasure is a bit of a different question I think…) (And the bible is a record of God demonstrating – proving, that His reality is the only one…)
What I’m thinking then is that the belief that I can control my eternal non-existence is simply to fall for the original temptation to be the cause of my own autonomy; my own well-being; my own existence. It is a denial of the fact of our God caused and God chosen (He sure didn’t include US in His decision!) being at HIS pleasure. Not ours.
Or something like that.
I’m wondering if you’ve developed this idea or any other explanation for why we Christians largely believe God is somehow obligated to give us eternally what we’ve “chosen”??
Thanks
Bobx3
PS Oh – and Happy Thanksgiving!!